Entrepreneur Intel

Wes: I am very excited today, uh, for our guest. So introducing our guest today. He's an entrepreneur who has successfully launched and exited five tech companies, resulting in creating over 10,000 jobs and selling for a combined value of over $200 million. He's helped launch and scale over a hundred startups, creating over a billion dollars in investor returns.

A four time New York Times bestselling author of the book's, Disciplined. The Road to Reinvention, Hacking Innovation, and Big Little Breakthroughs. A very highly regarded keynote speaker, a recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award. He's currently co-founder of Platypus Labs Impact 11 and Mudita Venture Partners.

Welcome Josh Linkner.

Josh Linkner: Great to be with you. My pleasure.

Wes: that is probably one of the most impressive backgrounds I've, I've been yet to introduce. Uh, it's pretty amazing. Uh, you've been an entrepreneur for a long time. I have to start this podcast and ask what I ask all of my guests, what's the most important lesson you've learned over your entire career?

I'm really excited to dive in, but what's that one thing for You

Josh Linkner: You know, it's so hard to say the one thing because as you know, building a business, there's lots of things and, and of course I'm still learning and we're all still learning together. I mean, 1, 1, 1 nugget that comes to mind is, um, is, is an ancient Chinese proverb, which, um, it says the word man, it should say man and woman.

It didn't at the time, but it's basically the proverb is man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it. I've always loved that because essentially it applies that, that things are more possible than they might seem. And, and, and it's easy to, throw wa water on an idea. And it's another thing to figure out, a way to get it done.

And it's funny, like I, got lucky a couple times in my career and eventually tried to trade out luck for a philosophy, which I just call find a way. It's one thing I think is a thread that entrepreneurs do, which is they basically use a combination of ingenuity and resolve to no matter what's thrown at them, they're gonna navigate that so they, can walk through a dark alley of, the unknown and come out strong on the other side knowing that they're gonna do what's necessary.

They're gonna bob and weave those sacrifices, whatever they gotta do. They're gonna find a way. And so that notion of there is a way that you can find and then, we, take it upon ourselves as entrepreneurs take that agency and ownership to, take on those monsters and demons and slay the dragons and, eventually get to the other side.

That to me is the commonality among, uh, entrepreneurs across all different sizes and shapes and, industries.

Wes: That's great. So like rewind, go way back with, with, you know, where you started, I mean, where I knew you from. You started a company called E-Prize back in like the late, you know, early two thousands. Was that your first sort of entrepreneurial venture or?

Josh Linkner: It wasn't. Um, so I started my career as a jazz guitarist. Uh, you know, I've, I've been playing in, uh, smoky rooms for, uh, for, for 40 years, believe it or not. And, uh, I played over a thousand concerts. I put myself through college playing music, and I started a tech company at age 20. I'd never taken a business class, but jazz musicians, while they find a way, you know, like they figure stuff out.

They're always improvising. And, and I was a little bit of a tech nerd. So I was like, well, maybe I could just mail order computer components and assemble them in my college apartment and sell 'em on campus and make some money. And again, I had no idea what I was doing. I made a million mistakes, did everything wrong.

But you know, I kind of figured it out. And it wasn't like a giant, I did sell it. It wasn't a giant outcome, but I learned a lot. And that's where I got the bug. So I was 20, started other companies, sold it, started another company, sold it. So by the time I started the E-Prize, which you you just mentioned, uh, it was 19 ninety-nine, that was already my fourth company.

And, and the other ones weren't, weren't quite as large or successful, but, but you know, we, we got some traction. And again, I learned a lot from the mistakes, probably more so than the victories. And, uh, I, I just, but it's, I, I just kind of think of myself as a jazz guy. Like, I just like creating new stuff and, and navigating uncertainty and ultimately figuring things out.

Wes: So, E-Prize, like back in 1999, it was a. Was a tech tech company, right? I mean, it was around sweepstakes. Like how did you come up with that idea? I mean, that was such a, to me, such an important time in the tech world. Internets just sort of coming out.

Like how did you fall into sweepstakes in that whole model? I.

Josh Linkner: Well, it, I started in 1995, a web design company, um, actually much like your, your previous business HLM, where, you know, we, it wasn't as cool as yours, by the way, just to be clear. But we, we built, uh, you know, websites and hosting, etc. This is back when no one even knew what the internet was. I would literally call people up and like, Hey, have you ever heard of the internet?

They're like, what's that? Like I can build you website. Like what's a website? Anyway, um, I ended up selling the company in 1999 to a public firm, you know, had a good outcome. But, um, in that process, uh, Volvo was a client and they asked me to build them an online sweepstakes. It was around the launch of a new car.

And I, I realized two things. One, I realized how complicated it was. It sounds like simple, but there was all these like legal and tech and like all these weird moving parts. So I realized it wasn't easy to deliver. But more importantly, I realized how motivating the chance to win was on human behavior.

Hundreds of thousands of people signed up to win this car, and in doing so, they converted from an anonymous browser. To a known permission-based relationship. So that was sort of the spark. It was both the power of, of a chance to win as a, as a motivator of human behavior, coupled with the complexity this to, to to, to, uh, deliver it.

And at the time, Wes, there was, um, a lot of people were focused on internet advertising, and I could have done that and been like the 700th mover, but, but no one was focused on internet promotion. And as you know, promotion is a very large part of the marketing mix, but it was really dormant online. So I figured like instead of just following the herd on internet advertising, what if I did the opposite and.

Promotion company. And, um, that's also been a theme of mine throughout, throughout the, my, my life in in business, which is when I see people doing one thing, I wanna do the opposite. If I see a horde of folks go in one direction, I'm like, cool, what's the exact polar opposite? And so that's how I started DeepRise.

I, I, I get this experience from Volvo, realized that nobody else was pursuing digital promotions. And I said, Hey, let's go.

Wes: So it sounds like out of a request from, uh, one of your customers, you spun off with this new business idea, which you ended up building into a very, very large company. I mean, I forget the staff, but maybe you can educate me on it, but. You had most of the Fortune 500 companies at some point that was, that was engaged with E-Prize, didn't you?

Josh Linkner: Yeah, we did. We ended up working, you know, so, so, by the way, as most entrepreneurs know, listening, entrepreneurship is never like, Hey, it's a cool idea, the shower, and then you're, you know, whisked off to fame and fortune in aine while wearing white gloves. That's not how it rolls. Like, you know, you're smack down, you have challenges you overcome.

It's, it's, it's hard. But, um, but yeah, over time we, we grew to scale and we had, um, worked with seventy-four of the top 100 brands. Uh, Coca-Cola, Procter, Gamble Nike, Microsoft, you know, you name it. Um, and so yeah, we, we did, we did some very large-scale programs at the time. Uh, when I sold the business, we were running a program for Coca-Cola called my.

Which was a global program underneath the caps of every Coca-Cola product on the planet. There was a a code and you could go in and log that code and you could win stuff. You could earn points for gear. And so we, we ran that program, uh, globally for the Coca-Cola company.

Wes: Which is, which is crazy to think about. 'cause I remember being in high school, so I graduated high school in 1999. I remember drinking coke and popping that open and, and you look at that and like the infrastructure and business behind that is really amazing. But I mean, as an entrepreneur sounds like leading up to E-Price, there's a theme with you of starting companies, selling 'em.

I mean, when you started E-Price, was that just ingrained in you that I, I want to start a business and sell it? Like what were some of the levers or things that made you say, Hey, I want to do this, but I ultimately wanna sell it.

Josh Linkner: Well, you know, I, I got a little taste of that bug because of, of the pie, I guess because, you know, I'd done it three times. At that point I was 29. I was like, Hey, and honestly, it's so funny because, you know, when we start a business and where, where you start, where your ender's often very, very different.

It's very rare that someone has this brilliant idea and it's perfectly. Envisioned and then you execute the idea and everything. You know, that's pretty rare. You end up pivoting and adapting a lot. My first vision for E-Prize, honestly, was that I was gonna build it with a single product and sell the company in two years for $10 million.

Like that was it. Like, that's what I'm gonna do. And the the, the business evolved to this multifaceted, very complex software agency type business. Had clients all over the world, different languages. It was very complicated. And, and, and we, we did a, uh, partial exit in 2005, so it was six years later, but not a full exit till 2012, which is, you know, 13 years later.

So, and it was bigger, bigger than my original goal, but you know, like things always evolve in a, in a different manner than you envision them.

Wes: So with like that, that initial sale in 2005, like as an entrepreneur, like what prompted you to sell a portion of it? Or was it to, I mean obviously they, to make a change or to get to the next level, but can you dive a little bit deeper into that?

Josh Linkner: Yeah, we, we at the time were getting, um, some knocks on the door from private equity and, and other strategic buyers. And we started to explore what the market would look like for either a whole wholesale of the business or a partial sale. And we ended up negotiating with a, a couple large private equity firms.

And at the 11th hour, I. Um, some of my existing investors, along with a couple new ones, said, why would we let this beautiful company go to Silicon Valley when we could keep it right here in Detroit? And so, um, that that time, um, Dan Gilbert was not an investor until then. He came in and participated in that, and we sold part of the business.

You know, he and others came in. We sort of reconstituted the, the. Cap table. And, and so it, it was helpful because we got some, you know, fresh eyes on the business, fresh, you know, mentors. Um, and we were also able to take some, some chips off the table. You know, one of the things that you, you, you know more, as much as anyone that as you're building a business, especially if it's early on in your career, you've got all your net worth tied up in a single business that actually can be unhealthy.

That means every decision you make, you're like, be betting your family's future. I, I wasn't in that spot at that point, but others in my business were. And so it allowed people to take some chips off the table and, you know, now you have to worry about your kids' college education or you pay off your house or whatever.

And, and so I thought it was a pretty healthy thing. So we ended up, um, you know, taking a, you know, I, I think it was a $66 million recap at the time we sold part of the business for that, and then kept, and then kept building the rest, uh, up until 2012.

Wes: How does, how does that change the perspective for you? Or maybe you can give like deeper insight as being an entrepreneur. Like you had the idea, you started a company, and then along the way you start to let, whether It's investors or private equity in, then you have an event in 2005. Like, does that path look the same for you now as like the original entrepreneur?

Did it kind of feel more like a job or like, did, did anything shift for you?

Josh Linkner: It's an excellent question and it certainly can, and, and it has for many people. In my particular case, in every case is different. That's the key point. But, um, because it was by our existing investors, you know, Dan Gilbert. Group became a very big investor. I was very close personal friends with Dan at the time.

And, and so it, it actually didn't feel that different, you know, the real thing was, you know, hey, we were able to take some, some chips off the table, but it was really more an investment in the future. And so I was fully in the CEO chair. They were backing and supporting me and my leadership with, with adding a lot of value too, by the way was, you know, just me.

But, um, it really didn't feel that way. It felt invigorating. It was like, okay, cool. That was one chapter and now, now let's go for something bigger. Let's see what we can build together. So at that point, you know, we started, we bought companies, we made acquisitions. Be expanded globally. And so the, the extra, uh, uh, um, access to capital allowed us to, to scale even further and ultimately get to the point where, where we did, so in my case, it didn't feel like a, oh, now I'm working for the man.

Um, because I had partners that allowed me to, to continue to build, build my vision.

Wes: And And what year was that? Were, did you completely exit that business?

Josh Linkner: So in 2010, um, I was, I was A-C-E-O-C sole founder, CEO till 2010. Um, I, I had a little bit of an epiphany Wes, I, I, I always felt like. I, I was humble enough to know when, when I was the right leader for the job, but when I was the wrong leader for the job. And as we got to that point, like I'm a jazz musician and jazz, like this scrappy art form, it's like messy.

I'm pretty good at that. But I, I read this article, um, that basically said, as a company grows the metaphor of leadership changes. And literally said this in the article. It's, it goes from jazz musician when you're early on, it's young and messy to symphony conductor, where it's more about precision and accuracy and alignment and, you know, and all that.

And so I couldn't just make a change on the fly anymore. I had to. Bring my sales team in and bring the metrics team in and bring the legal team in. And you know, it's starting to get slow and clunky 'cause it was a bigger company. And I looked myself in the mirror and said, you know what, I'm a pretty good jazz musician.

I'm an okay symphony conductor. And so the company's growing profitable. There wasn't like an external factor, but I went to my board and shared the article with them and I said, listen, I always knew when, when it would be time. I've always put the company's needs ahead of my own personal needs. I i's my, my ego.

Let's do what's right for the company. And at this next stage of the, the company's growth, I think it needs a, a badass symphony conductor rather than a jazz musician who, who plays a little classical. And they were supportive. We, we did a, a, a national search, hired a search firm, and I hired, uh, Matt Wise to become the CEO.

He is a terrific sympathy conductor. Um, I moved to a full, uh, to a chairman, role, executive chairman, and, and stayed on until 2012 to answer your question. But we fully sold the business and Matt joked around with me a lot and he's like, said, Matt, I could have never done what you did. And I said, I, I can't, I wouldn't wanna do what you're doing.

And so it was kind of like having the, the self-awareness to know what you're good at and, and, and where you need to bring in somebody else who is, uh, who it was his time and, and he did a phenomenal job.

Wes: No, that, that's really great feedback. I think as an entrepreneur it's tough. I bump into many entrepreneurs where some have their egos is they're, they're too big, or Hey, this is my baby. And even though the world around them and things aren't working well, they just won't give it up. Or they can't look in the mirror and say, Hey, I might not be the right person.

I think in my world I've heard, you know, at some point you have to take an entrepreneurial company into a professionally managed company. Um, so that kind of takes you out of E-Prize onto your next, and I think where I. Was when you kind of rolled into Detroit Venture partners. And for me, my perspective is, you know, I've grown up, you know, I'm, I'm forty-two, I dated myself.

I was in high school in 19 ninety-nine. Detroit was, you know, zombie apocalypse. You know, you didn't go down there. You went straight to the baseball game and you came straight home. It just wasn't a place that I would want to invest and spend any time with. And I think at the time I met you. There was like this thing happening in Detroit, like techs coming to Detroit, everybody's talking about Detroit.

I mean, it came out of nowhere and then all of a sudden I meet you and I think you were sitting down in Detroit Venture partners. You wanna dive in a little bit about, you know, to me, like that's fascinating that it went from zombie apocalypse, from my perspective to the place where everybody wants to be.

Josh Linkner: Yeah. Well, I thank you. Um, I really credit Dan Gilbert. I mean, he had this incredible vision. I, I went down with him. This was before he was as famous as he is now. This must have been, you know, 2007 or oh eight. And, and we're down there and he is like, he and I, just two of us. He didn't have any security around or anything.

We're walking around. He's like, he's like, what do you see? I'm like, a zombie apocalypse, you know? And he is like this. He's like, gave me this dirty look. He's like, no, man. Like I see this beautiful opportunity and like let's build this beautiful city back. And this is sitting with a soul. And you, this is.

Like, let's make this happen. And so he had this incredible vision and sometimes it takes someone with that kind of, not only resources, but vision. And so, um, as we started talking over the next couple years, you know, we, we became close friends and he said, you know, Hey, after ePrize, what are you thinking?

And I, I was like, you know, what I really wanna do is be, be a venture investor. I wanna invest in other entrepreneurs and, and be active in supporting their growth and success. So we, we talked for, for a couple years and, and together we started to trade venture partners in 2010. You're right. People are like, what?

You're starting a venture firm in Detroit. What? Like tech entrepreneurs. What? Like, get outta here. Go to Silicon Valley. Go to New York. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And for us, we said, you know, maybe we'll make some money, but we said maybe we can make a difference. And we, we were both from Detroit born in the city, wanted to make Detroit a special place again.

And we said, let's take this non-traditional approach using tech investing and, and supporting and mentoring young entrepreneurs in the city of Detroit to see if we can make a difference. And, and over time, it was fascinating when we opened DVP. There wasn't one tech startup in the entire 140 square miles of Detroit, Michigan.

Not one. Within 18 months of opening our fund, there were, there were 70, but we didn't fund all 70. We, we only funded a couple of 'em, but we got some momentum going and that wasn't 70 in all of Detroit. That was 70 within one block of our building, I. And so we, we, we tried to be sort of a catalyst to, to help others, you know, invest.

And, and, uh, by the way, I'm not taking any credit for what, where Detroit is now. Again, Dan gets the credit for that. But, um, I did feel like we played a small role in helping to, to, to sort of rethink what, what Detroit could be. And, and, and now you see things really on fire. It's very, very exciting. It's very heartening.

Wes: Well, I'll give you credit 'cause I, I, I could kind of see from the catalyst perspective all of these companies going down. Obviously Quicken loans going down there was a big one more from a corporate standpoint, but to be able to be an outsider, to go down there and see what happens is to me it's like nothing short of amazing.

So starting Detroit Venture partner, you're there for a handful. Are you still involved with Detroit Venture partner or no. Or.

Josh Linkner: No. So the, what ended up happening was, um, you know, I, I was the CEO for, for four years and, um, at the end of that period, Dan ended up buying me out. So Dan is, uh, now the sole, again, owner and and operator of Detroit Country Partners. Many of my old team members are still there. Jake Cohen, Ted. Uh, who else is there?

There's a handful of others there. Um, Jared Stasek is still there, so it's, it's doing well. It's a thriving, they're still in Madison building. It's really exciting. But, um, so I went on and did, did other stuff. I, I, uh, I wrote a couple additional books and that's in a bunch of businesses and sat on boards and the like.

And, um, in 2020, my brother, my younger brother, Ethan, he's 13 years younger than I am, um, he, he had, he became a successful entrepreneur as well. He had a big exit. And we were sort of like many people in the middle of Covid thinking, well, what, what, what, you know, what's next? And, and so the two of us decided to start another venture fund.

So we started a, a firm called Mudita. Venture Partners. M-U-D-I-T-A. Mudita actually is a Sanskrit term, which means taking joy in other people's success. I. So Wes, as I saw you continue to crush things over the years and ultimately, and have an exit for your business, that gave me deep joy intrinsically to watch you and, and, and see your success.

And I, I really, you know, that, that filled me up. And so we said, what if we started a venture fund also investing in tech entrepreneurs? But we did it with the, the notion of instead of being cutthroat, what if we did it and we were supportive and we prioritized generosity and kindness and compassion instead of like ripping people's throats out to make more money.

And we're outcome focused, like we're driving hard, but, but we're doing it in a kind way. And so yeah, we raised a $40 million fund. We were oversubscribed and, and today we're still, I'm so overseeing that fund. We invest in early stage tech companies that can not only make it, uh, some money, but also can, can make an impact.

Wes: Yeah. So what does that look like? I mean, if, if there's a, a tech company that's interested in taking on capital from venture, like to have a guy like you in their, in their corner is amazing. So what, what does that process look like? I mean, there's so many people out there with ideas. You look at, I mean, from the, I think I met you in 2014.

You actually probably introduced me to one thing that completely changed my life, which was EO. I think I came, you and I were talking, I think I was all over the place wanting to bang my head against the wall as an entrepreneur. Like, I think I need therapy. And you're like, eh, go look at EO. Go join EO.

It's a bunch of other entrepreneurs. And that, that changed my life. I'm still involved with them after 10 years later. Um, but, you know, think thinking about, thinking about a tech startup. In the world today with AI and all these different things like ai, I don't remember that in our relationship even thinking about ai.

But how does somebody now take on capital for an idea as an entrepreneur? Like what is, like, how do they come to MoDiTA and say, Hey, I have something different that hasn't been done before. Invest in me.

Josh Linkner: Well, so our, our firm, you know, double clicking on that, we invest in co in in companies that are post revenue-growth spurt. So generally the companies we invest in are companies that are doing, call it half a million to a million dollars a year in recurring revenue and they're scaling pretty quickly. So if someone's like just a blank idea on a piece of paper, we're always happy to talk and provide, you know, feedback and coaching and stuff.

We're probably not the right investor for that. But there are other firms that focus on seed. Um, you know, just an idea on a, on the back of a napkin. Um, but, but the answer to your question, you know, what does someone do if someone has an idea that you know, something on their heart they really wanna build?

I think you might ask yourself, you know, what's the problem that I'm solving here More than falling in love with? What, what's the idea? It's more like, what's the problem? And, and being fluid and flexible to, to just stay focused on how can I solve that problem in the best possible way? And then, then you say, can I, can I solve the problem in a novel way?

So, just like I did in Back In You Prize, you're asking about. Instead of being like the 800th copycat company, I said, could I be, what, what's a, the only quote about the only, I was the, instead of the million internet advertising company, I was the only internet promotion company. So the other question, question I would ask an entrepreneur is, what, what are you the only, where are you a category of one?

What are you doing differently rather than, what are you doing that, that blends in with everybody else? And so I think if you're, you're really going after an important problem and you're, you found a novel. Innovative way to, to do it. Um, that that's, that's half the battle there. And then there, you know, luckily in, in, in Michigan and, and actually beyond, there's a lot of people that are willing to, you know, write that first $50,000 check to help you build a prototype or write that first a hundred thousand dollars check to hire your first employee.

And, um, and then, and then, you know, obviously every business is different, but it's more like, how do you navigate to get to enough progress and proof where then, you know, a later stage investor would be interested.

Wes: So through EO, we just hosted a really large event last October where I think we have Magic Johnson come out. You spoke and the, the one thing that I keep thinking about is I heard more individuals give feedback on your talk, and something you said right there I think really stood out to me when you were speaking, you called it the judo flip.

To me like that stuck out so many times since I've run up. You know, starting a new company running up against all these different walls, like just think about it a little bit from a different perspective. You know, like, what's that judo flip? I mean, that's kind of exactly what you're talking about, right?

With E-Prizes. Everybody's going this way and you're like, eh, judo, flip it. I'm gonna go that way. I.

Josh Linkner: Yeah, you know, it's a fun, fun, easy, memorable idea. But the notion is, you know, if you're about to take on a challenge or an opportunity, you first kind of take a look, what's everybody else doing? What's the conventional approach? What, what would tradition suggest? And then before that, diabolical temptation.

Follow everybody else. You say, all right, pause. What's a judo flip? You know, what would it look like if I did the polar opposite? So if everybody's doing, you know, going left, what would it look like if I went right? You know, that kind of thing. And so I've always loved that idea, like, okay, before you just blindly follow what, what's been done before, what if you did the complete opposite thing?

And, um, and that's, that's what I've do do throughout my career. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, in my case anyway, it's, it's, it's paid off.

Wes: So that leads into four times New York Times bestseller. So is your first, your first book is Disciplined Dreaming. As many entrepreneurs, they all have stories, they all wanna write books. You, you took action and wrote four of them, which I've read all four of them and they're all phenomenal. Um, like how did you start, how did you go down that path?

I mean, did you just, it sounds like you have so much going on. You have, you're such a wealth of knowledge, but how do you actually go about, as an entrepreneur to sit down and write that first book and take action on that?

Josh Linkner: Yeah, thanks for asking. Um, you know, for me it started with a, with a, a message that was on my heart that I wanted to share. And it wasn't, uh, like, Hey, lemme tell you my worst stories so I can like self-engrandizement. It was, it was more, more, more of like a gift. So I think to answer your question, someone thinking about that should say, what's the gift that I wanna give to others?

Not how can I tell everybody my story so they think I'm cool or something. And my, my was on my heart was that, you know, being a musician and, and an entrepreneur, there are, um. I realize the importance of, of human creativity and, and to this day, I, I realize there's seven billion-plus people on this planet.

Me and you included that, that have varying levels of dormant creative capacity. In other words, we're hard-wired to be creative. That's our natural state, but we don't always use that. You know, in fact, we, many of us have been told not to use it. You know, don't make mistakes, don't try anything new, and, and, and I just felt that if I could help people unlock.

This incredible gift that we all have. The world would just be better. People's businesses would perform better. They could feed their families better. We could attack things like social injustice or climate change or whatever else. The world would just be better. And when you look back at, at the, at the changes that made the world better in the past from the printing press and penicillin, they, they were always from some creative idea.

And, and so that was what was calling me. It was like, Hey, the world's kind of goofy and, and if I could help people be more creative, the world would be better. So that's what to write the book. It was it. I felt like called to do it to a degree. And, um, and then, then I just did a lot of research. I mean, you know, they don't just sit down and, I mean, I suppose if it's a memoir, it's one thing.

I, I didn't want it to be a memoir, so I, I must've read a hundred books on creativity and innovation, even though I had a pretty good perspective myself. I must've read 500 academic reports and journals. I watched hours and hours of video. I not only did secondary research, but I, I did, uh, primary research.

I interviewed over 200 people in, in the writing of that book and asked 'em questions like, how. How do you come up with ideas and how do you think about creativity? I did both quantitative and and qualitative analysis. And so I wanted the book to have substance and depth and weight. I didn't want it to be like, Hey, here's what I did.

Look at me. You know, and, and so, um, and then, then you begin the writing process, which is hard. You know, writing is not, not an easy thing. I once met with a very famous author and I said, do you like writing? And he said, I like having written. I thought that was a very funny answer and I could relate to it.

And, but, but essentially what, what drove me, and I know it sounds like a rehearsed answer, but it's not, is like I just kept saying like, this is an important message. This is a message that people need to hear. It's gonna help people's lives and families. And so that's what kind of just pushed me through the process.

And then like anything, you know, the first time you do something was always the hardest, second time's a little easier. And you know, I, I, I've written every week since, you know, it was 15 years ago. And so, you know, you do something a lot, you get better at it. I'm still not great, but you, you keep getting better.

Wes: So with the books, I assume you know there, there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there that have. That, that go down the path of how, how do you get your media and content out there? I mean, you quickly, I started seeing you everywhere. In terms of keynote speaking, was the book a really good gateway to just get that message out there and who Josh Linkner is and was that the segue into, into your speaking?

I.

Josh Linkner: Yeah, it, it was, um, you know, uh, I like speaking always. I, you know, come from a jazz background, so I don't mind being on stage. And, you know, I've attended many speeches where, you know, you hear those one or two nuggets and it changes everything for you. I realize the impact of the spoken word, and by the way, you look back at famous speeches like MLK or John F.

Kennedy or whatever, like. The, the spoken word has changed the world since the beginning of time. And so I was then, you know, 'cause I had this message and I wanted to make a difference. Um, I was called to feel like I, I should, should speak. And, um, you know, like anything else, your first speeches suck and you keep practicing.

And I watched tape and, you know, just studied the craft and tried to go from, uh, I had so, okay. Amateur skills. And I was like, how do I go from a decent amateur to at least a. A bad professional. So I, I worked with a speaking coach for eight, uh, eight months or so. I, I studied it, I watched other speakers and, and then kind of went after it.

And, um, I'm very grateful, you know, to this day I've done, I've done 1300 keynotes over the.

Wes: Wow.

Josh Linkner: 15 years, I've, uh, won tomorrow in Phoenix and the next day in Minneapolis. So I'm still very active in that. And, uh, it's great for me because I get to meet amazing people, you know, CEOs of giant companies. I get to learn about other businesses.

I get to contribute, I get to teach, I get to share, I get to create. So for me, it chats a lot of boxes. Very fulfilling work. And not in the way you think, man, like. It's one thing to get applause or you get a standing ovation. I, I look, that's awesome. You know, great. That, that actually is nice. But it doesn't, that's not what fuels me.

What fuels me is knowing that, you know, you're, you're really touching somebody, you're making a difference. And then what happens is, like this feedback loop. So I'll get, there's not a week that doesn't go by where I'm not getting a text or an email or a voicemail like, Hey Josh, I was, I was in your speech three months, three years ago and we were just in a board meeting and we got stuck and we didn't know what to do.

And someone said, we'll try Judo flipping it. And like that opened up the answer. And so just, you know, this feedback loop of knowing that you're impact. I think, you know, earlier in our careers we're trying to create, um, we're trying to create like proof. Like, Hey, look what I, look at me. You're trying to, you know, show that you're, you matter or you're significant.

And then, and, and then later stage of your career, maybe you want to, you're driven more by impact. And so what drives me to do that work isn't like, oh, I got paid a bunch of money to go give a speech. It's more like, Hey, I got to go sit in front of 1500 people and, and, and help them rethink their approach to, to work and life and, and hopefully, you know, leave a couple positive nuggets behind.

Wes: at some point I was gonna ask you the question like, why doesn't Josh Linkner ride off in the sunset on an island with a. My tie, but you just answered it. I mean, you're the passion of why you do what you do. Truly inspiring. Like I mentioned, I've, I've seen, I've had the opportunities to speak a handful of times.

The last event I was at, I mean, there was so many people around, were like, oh my, like that, that was amazing. And I, I've seen. I hate to say thousands of speakers, but again, I've been part of EO now for 10 years. I've seen a lot of speakers and most of the time, Yeah, it's like the same old thing. I mean, you really do come, you're super motivational.

There's a ton of nuggets. Your books have a ton of nuggets. Um, yeah, I, but I wanna pick out one thing about the, the award. I, mean, you have won some pretty significant awards. Uh, so what is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award? Was that when Obama was president?

Josh Linkner: Yeah, I, I'll, I'll get back to just one last quick comment. Um, you, you're the same way, you like building things. You like, you, you like winning, you know, you're competitive. You know, like, like, you know, the, the, the notion of sitting on a beach as, as an with a Mai Tai, a lot of times entrepreneurs dream about that and then they have the re resources to do it and they do it for like a month and they wanna pull their hair up.

And so if you think about what really drives us as people, as, as humans, it, it's, it's creating impact. It's, it's. Solving tough problems. It's winning and being competitive. It's creating something. It's, it's fulfilling your potential. And, and, and as fun as it is to drink, go drink Mai, Tai. I'll drink as many as anyone like awesome like that at some point.

That, that, that, that is less enjoyable than it seems on the surface. And, and I think people who are truly entrepreneurial, you and I are kind of wired that way. I could give you a billion dollars in cash. And you'd be like, yeah, I'm gonna go drink Mai Tai's. And then two weeks later you'd be calling me up like, Hey man, I got an idea for a new company.

And, and to me that's actually a really beautiful thing, not a negative thing because I mean, we're kind of here for a reason and I doubt it's to only sip my ties. It's, it's to, to contribute. And so anyway, I didn't mean to get off on tangent, but, uh.

Wes: No, that's a, that's a great story. A little caveat to that. I mean, you, you've, you've had. Very successful exit. I, I had an exit and the partner I had at the time, we were just got done playing a round of golf. We had a really good relationship. We had like a ten-year plus run and like when the thing was over, right, the closing of the deal, we literally looked at each other and we're like, huh.

Now what? Like it was this very anti-climatic, like, this isn't over. Like, what's the next chapter? Like you think it's like fireworks go off and this thing happens, but nothing, nothing changed. It was more like, okay, what now? Like this was part of the plan. To me, I think it was a bigger divine intervention plan, but it's just, it's just really interesting that, you know, the illusion of riding off into the sunset, drinking Mai, Tai sounds good for like a, a couple days and then it's like, all right, back, back to the grind.

Right.

Josh Linkner: Yeah, because it doesn't, you know, you're still Wes, I'm still Josh, we're still the same people with the same desires to create things and challenge our minds and, and learn stuff. And, and so nothing against exits, by the way. This is awesome. Like, 'cause now you have more resources to do more things all, yay.

All, all day long. But, but, um, to me, you know, people ask, ask like, Hey, when are you gonna retire? I'm like, well, if I was like doing something I hated and I was trading my soul for money, I would've retired as quick as I could. But if you're doing something that you love and that you're passionate about and that fuels you, there's no such thing as like, I, I don't think I'm quote unquote retire.

That's just not, not who I am. But, and you two, I know. Um, and, and back to your actually a good segue to the award. You know, awards are nice. Uh, the, the things that have filled my soul more is like. When, when someone you helped give a job and give a shot to, or maybe help them, you know, learn something and they just bought their first house like that, that's, that's real rewarding.

But I did win this. I was very lucky to win an award from, uh, president Obama, uh, called the Champion of Change Award for, really for the work that we were doing in the city of Detroit, where we were, you know, injecting entrepreneurship and backing, um, uh, sort of non-traditional, uh, uh, entrepreneurs and giving a lot of support and love and helping elevate our city.

It's cool, man. I White House and I meet Obama. It was, it was a cool photo op. So, you know, to me, those, those markers are really nice. I'm not anti-rewards, like, awesome. That, that's pretty cool. But, um, when I look back over my, you know, career, that's actually, I'm proud of that. But like there, there are things I'm more proud of that are probably less notable, but more intrinsically rewarding.

Wes: Yeah. Yeah, for Sure. I hear you on that. I just, I, it's pretty amazing though to be recognized for that in like your career. I mean, reading your. Is just pretty amazing, but I want to pick on Impact. 11. Can you talk a little bit about what Impact 11 is and what purpose that company serves?

Josh Linkner: in, uh, 2016 or so, so I started speaking professionally as met about 15 years ago, and I made every mistake, you could make most of 'em twice by the way, but, uh, you know, over time kind of figured it out. I applied the same kind of rigor and discipline that I applied building a software business to, to the world of professional speaking.

And, and in doing so, I got some real traction, you know, my business. Live events and so, you know, so, so anyway, people were kind of asking me, Hey, can you help me launch this my own speaking practice? Or can you help me be better on stage or could you help me, you know, scale to the next level? And so it started as a passion project, which is essentially to help other keynote speakers launch and or scale their practice.

And it's funny, it mentioned sometimes what you start with and what you end with are very different. Um, that, that has just evolved and morphed in a lot of interesting ways. Today it's really a thriving community of several hundred thought leaders, all different sizes, shapes, ethnicities, topics, genders, et cetera.

And, and we, um, we're helping, we're doing, doing this work together. So the notion is, it's called impact 11, by the way, because like how do we help create impact on a scale from one to 10 all the way up to. And so it's, it started again as more of a training and development business, and now it's more of this thriving community where we're all kinda helping each other.

We're, we're walking this, this path together. We help each other with learning. We help each other with gigs. We help each other with stagecraft, and, and there it is still training. There's lots of, you know, educational stuff. Basically as a community of people that are, are committing their lives to, to making the world a better place.

And not only doing that, but to helping others rise to that challenge and thrive. And so it's pretty cool, man, like looking back, we've helped hundreds of speakers launch and scale. I get same thing. I get texts all the time, Josh, I just got my first standing ovation, Josh, I just book my first gig in front of 2000 people.

Here's a picture. And so just knowing that I'm playing like a small role in helping other thought leaders make a, make their own mark in the universe has also been very rewarding.

Wes: Well, I love the trend with you. You know, again, people are coming to you with problem and you're like, I, I kind of see a solution here if I can create a company. You talk a little bit about that. I mean, you've had, you know, going back through your journey. How do you grow? It couldn't have been you alone, right?

I mean, you're a visionary entrepreneur, like who did you keep around you? Like how did you continuously Bob and weave and make these moves? I mean, unless you're like this solo guy, but like you talk about the cast and crew.

Josh Linkner: Yeah, I'm really glad you said that. It absolutely was not just me. Like no chance of that. You know, a along the way, we, we had some amazing people at E-Prize, and by the way, one of the things I'm most proud of, more so than the Obama Award, is what the alumni of E-Prize have gone on to do. You know, there's people that, that the, um, chief Mobility Officer of the State of Michigan is an ex-E-Prizer.

People have started businesses and sold them multiple times over since leading E-Prize. I mean, like, it's pretty cool actually. You know, people at high levels in Google, you know, and so, so I'm really, actually really proud of that. But yeah, all along I had this philosophy like, be the dumbest guy in the room, not the smartest, hire amazing people around you and, and, and build a team that, that instead of, you know, makes you look like great all the time.

You know, that, that, that can offset your strengths and weaknesses. There are some things I'm pretty good at and there's way more things that I suck at, and so like how do you bring people where, where their talents are gonna be complementary? And so yeah, all of the businesses. Been through the, the, the work and creativity and passion of others, not just me, but it impact to love.

And, you know, you, we share a mutual friend, Jordan Broad. So I hired Jordan as an intern in 1995 for my business before he prize. And, you know, I sold that business. He then joined me at E-Prize. And so he and I have been working together for now almost 30 years. And he is a, he is a, he's a really a talented guy.

He is the CEO of impact 11. And he, he actually University of Michigan engineering degree. So he has the capacity to be implementer. He can execute, but he actually is pretty visionary at the same time, he actually is one of those rare people that can span both. And Jordan, you know, I would not be where I'm, without his support and, and incredible contribution and many other people along the way.

I tend to have these long-term relationships. Uh, there's another guy, uh, Bob Marsh, who, uh, started working in my business I think right around when Jordan did 19 5, 95 or 96. And he is been with me through a number of different evolutions. He was a senior executive at ePrize. He left to start up his own company.

I invested in this company. He had an exit. I got him a job at a different company that I was on the board of. He then came back and I was the Chief Revenue Officer at Impact 11. Um, the consulting practice that I run called Planet Plus Labs, the CEO is a guy named Kaiser Yang, who started as a senior executive at ePrize in like 2002.

And so I kind of liked these, you know, multi-decade relationships and, and, um, it's kind of neat when you can know how to rely on one another and of course provide support, uh, to help each other thrive and, and, and soar.

Wes: Well, it's really cool too, 'cause I think as an entrepreneur sometimes, I mean, people have an idea. I mean, when I first became an entrepreneur before, I'm like, I wanna make as much money as possible. I'm like, that's what I want to do. And then I quickly realized that Yeah. I am, you know, I, I, I need to find others that can lift me up, that share in the vision, because.

Man, it sucks being lonely as an entrepreneur, as a visionary, you need those right tactical people to, to help you execute on your vision. So it's really cool that you have these relationships along the way that have kind of, you know, been behind the scenes. I think a lot of people just kind of see what's on the surface, but don't realize, what's that picture?

It's got like a, you know, a, a big floating glacier, right? You see the beautiful glacier on the top, but underneath is like all the pits And, all the different things, you know, all the war stories, you know, uh, I had the opportunity. You, you, you were instrumental in helping HLM and I had a lot of individuals come from E-Prize through HLM.

And what was the cool thing was every so often they'd be like, they tell stories about E-Prize or like Back at E-Prize this happened and like all these cool stories. So like that legacy lives on. That's really cool. Um. So, and, and also at Impact 11, I've heard a lot of feedback and people are like, they want to get into the speaker circuit, and they're like, yeah, I'm, I'm doing this thing, and Josh Linkner is a part of it.

I'm like, that's so cool because I've seen you on stage first firsthand knowing how great you are. But then now it's impacting others to say, Hey, like, I'm now taking what I've learned and all my mistakes and giving it to you. Like, that's such a cool thing to see and then hear the feedback from people like, that's, that's awesome.

So with Platypus Labs, what does that company focus on? So speaking right now. Mudita Venture Partners. What's, what's Platypus?

Josh Linkner: Yeah. And, and by the way, that notion you're talking, you know, obviously the entrepreneurs are listening to this program and the notion of not only achieving something for yourself, but then bringing someone along for the ride with you. You know, helping the person who's a step behind you, you know, cross over the, the, the, the, the, the treacherous rivers like that, that's a really in intrinsically rewarding feeling, you know?

And so it'd be a part of it, like helping others launch their speaking practice has been great helping other entrepreneurs thrive through investment and support. There's nothing better. Platypus Labs answer your question. I was, um, often speaking at big companies and, and I'd get off the stage and the CEO e would be like, man, that was awesome, you know, thank you.

And, but like, can, can you help us drive these ideas deeper? Like you can only do just you, even the best keynote in the world, it's only 60 minutes. Like, how much can you really do? But they, I kept getting asked like, can, can you drive, can you count? My whole company? Can, can we embed these ideas? Change our culture.

You, we have 150,000 employees. And, and, and for many years I said no. I was like, yeah, go read my book. I didn't know what to do. But a lot of fellow speakers, um, I realized had a, had a, like a consulting practice that was based off of their, uh, original body of work and the research, and they, they would supplement.

So when someone asked that same question, they'd say, well, actually, yeah, you know, we have training programs, we have consulting practice. And so, um, I called up Kaiser, who was a, again, longtime friend and colleague who was the CEO of Platypus Labs. And, and we built a practice where. When a co company like Cardinal Health, who's been a many year client of ours, and I give a speech and the CE says, Hey, that, that was pretty cool.

Um, then we say, well, we can follow through and provide training and, and, and development programs and consulting and research that will help all a hundred thousand people at Cardinal Health become everyday innovators. And so that's also been rewarding. It's, again, it gives the opportunity to leave a bigger impact than anyone could possibly make in a 60 minute keynote to drive long lasting and, and substantive change over time.

It's pretty cool.

Wes: That's awesome. Yeah, I would think about how many, how many times you go on stage and make such an impact. And, and so many people are reaching out like, help me. Or I, you know, can you look in this? And you're like, I mean, at some point you have to say no because you only have so much time in a day and you said you had about 160 at your peak.

Like, that's a lot of planes. That's a lot of timing. Trains getting to where you need to go. I wanna add something to the last point you made. It made me think of it, which I think is valuable for me anyway. You know, when you, the individuals you work with along the way, I think A lot of people have this notion like all days are great.

Like there's some bad days where. I'm off, like I think I'm coming off Covid right now. My whole family's sick. And then you have partners or people in your corner that like pick up your slack. I think to be on point every day as an entrepreneur is so hard where, you know, some days you're just, Hey, I gotta do this.

But it kind of makes that whole ecosystem go, 'cause you're not gonna be on every single day.

Josh Linkner: A hundred percent. Right. And um, you know, we used to think of these entrepreneurs as somebody who was bulletproof and infallible and had no weaknesses. And that's not only not true, but I think we put that pressure on ourselves. It's impossible to, you're never gonna live up to that standard. And now more than ever, I guess in my, you know, a little bit older age, it's like.

I think it's about more about bringing your humanity to the surface and, and admitting when you're having a lousy day that's okay, and showing some vulnerability. We're not bulletproof. We're, and sometimes we're, we do really good and we should own proud of. Stupid things and that's okay. Like well, let's figure it out, navigate that.

And I actually think that people around you respond better if you give them a chance to shine. Like I think in my older or my younger years, I was like, I tried to be everything for everybody. And I was like muscling it out and gripping so tightly. And now it's like I'm gonna try to relax a little bit and give other people a chance to shine and create a little bit of room for others.

And I actually think it's a more effective approach to leadership and entrepreneurship when instead of being just like charge and take the hill every minute, you, you're willing to give some grace to others and, and to yourself.

Wes: No, that's great. Josh, I, I could talk to you forever. I, I know I gotta let you go though. You're, you're a very busy guy, but we have the speaker Bureau, we have the Platypus labs, we have the tech Venture stuff. If there's anybody out there that wants to get in contact with you. What is the best way for them to contact Josh Linkner,

Josh Linkner: Yeah. Thanks man. It's, it's, it is really been a pleasure hanging out with you. I've always enjoyed our conversations and so grateful to have you as a friend. Um, uh, easiest thing is just my website, which is just joshlinkner.com. There's links to the other stuff from there. Our, our, you know, venture fund and everything else.

But, uh, just my name, J-O-S-h-L-I-N-K-N-E-R.com. And uh, I'm also on social channels and if anyone wants to ping me, I'm happy to chat.

Wes: which your website by the way, I did go on there the other day is pretty amazing. It's very, very nice. Um, Josh, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Josh Linkner: You congrat.

Wes: Uh, thank, thank you. If you learned something today, please sell, tell something about the podcast. Thanks again, Josh Linkner. Appreciate it. We'll see you soon. Thank you.